Trawsgrifiad o dâp 1 o gyfweliad â Gwilym Blair Williams gan David Mathias. 1982Hyd: 01:02:52 Hanes o'i brofiadau yn y Rhyfel Byd Cyntaf. [trawsgrifiad wedi'i greu Gorffennaf 2025] Nodyn:[Oherwydd ansawdd y recordiadau gwreiddiol, a wnaed yn wreiddiol ar recordwyr caset cludadwy yn y 1980au, mae'r recordiad wedi'i brosesu'n helaeth i wella'r lleisiau a gipiwyd. Mewn rhai achosion, mae'r wybodaeth yn annealladwy. Gall rhai anghywirdebau barhau. Lle'r oedd gwybodaeth yn annealladwy, mae'r trawsgrifiad yn defnyddio [?] i nodi'r digwyddiadau hyn.]

[trawsgrifiad ar gael yn Saesneg yn unig]
 

Tâp 1 Ochr 1
 

00:00:03 Gwilym Blair

I knew him when I was 20 of age. I played with him then.

00:00:10 David Mathias

Who did you play for then?

00:00:13 Gwilym Blair

Pontardawe, yes, united service chapel.

I played the same time as Rowe Harding

00:00:24 David Mathias

Remember Haydn Tanner?

00:00:29 Gwilym Blair

Well, yes, yes. Yeah. Well. Rowe Harding was a Loughor [Loughor Rugby Football Club] man. Yes, yes. Captain Wales. What? Yeah, yeah, he's a county court judge at the moment.

[chatter] [?]

00:00:58 Gwilym Blair

I'm sorry I played. I played on Stradey Park. A couple games in Llanelli with Pontardulais[?]

00:01:16David Mathias

What position did you play?

00:01:17 Gwilym Blair

Centre or stand off

00:01:30 [unknown speaker 1]

But Mametz [Wood] was rather like Cardiff Arms Park, but because every self-respecting Welshman was, there wouldn't be really.

00:01:37 David Mathias

You know, they were always selling the tickets.

A chance to be seen.

00:01:42 Gwilym Blair

Did you go out with the party?

00:01:48 [unknown speaker 1]

Yes, he did, because. David described Mametz to us, you see.

00:01:51 David Mathias

The story, you see, is that I've had an interest in Mametz [Wood] for a long, long time.

Because it's a particularly Welsh battle.

00:02:03 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yeah, yes. [?] took the whole of us into. You take it, you see.

Phillips launched an attack with but a Brigade, to start off with.

00:02:22 [unknown speaker 1]

114 [brigade]

00:02:23 Gwilym Blair

Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

00:02:28 [unknown speaker 1]

With Cardiff City, really

00:02:30 Gwilym Blair

I wasn’t with [?]  really. I was with the RWF [Royal Welch Fusiliers].

I joined the RWF transitioned into the Welsh

00:02:34 David Mathias

I see.

Now how did a South Walian end up in the RWF?

00:02:49 Gwilym Blair

Well, I'll tell you, they had, they had the pals, couple of pals brigade battalions, and you had to be a member either of a secondary school or public school or university before you could join. I managed to go in under those conditions.

And we went into the 16th. Th 13th with the first pals and the 16th of the second pals. North Wales pals.

00:03:26 [unknown speaker 1]

Where did you trade in England?

00:03:27 Gwilym Blair

Llandudno

00:03:34 David Mathias

You were a volunteer, Mr. Williams? One of Kitchener’s volunteers?

00:03:36 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. Just showing, just showing [?] my, my medals the other day.

The 1914-15 star

00:03:46 David Mathias

Yes, that was for the Kitchener’s New Army, wasn’t it?

00:03:52 Gwilym Blair

Oh yes. It was [?] Lloyd George’s division, you see.

00:03:55 David Mathias

Now, having volunteered then, you put it to the RWF. Which battalion were you in?

00:03:56 Gwilym Blair

16th

00:04:05 David Mathias

16th. An you went into the left of the wood [Mametz Wood]?

00:04:06 Gwilym Blair

Yes, right in the bottom left-hand corner.. There's a piece sticking out the bottom left hand corner. Well, in there, there was a machine gun.

And my job was to go with a set of bombers to snuff it out.

00:04:20 David Mathias

You were the bomber yourself, were you?

00:04:26 Gwilym Blair

[Yes, I didn't bomber then.?]

00:04:32 David Mathias

Now then, you were doing that with the first wave, presumably?

00:04:35 Gwilym Blair

Oh yes, we were the first. First. The left, the left flank. Left brigade, you see.

The first wave.

We came up on the top of the ridge, down into the valley, then up the incline then to the left-hand corner.

00:04:56 [unknown speaker 1]

That's where we stood, that there's a cemetery there.

00:05:01 David Mathias

We stood on that, that ridge, and we looked down. That must have been almost the exact spot then.

00:05:07 Gwilym Blair

But coming down from the village, there was a long slope down to what we used to know as Happy Valley.

And then there was another little [?] that went off.

And I spent the day before the advance there.

Priming bombs. Little bombs. Boxes, boxes, thousands of them. Thousands of grenades there. Piles and piles of boxes.

We were there all day priming these bombs. Then dished them out for of the advance.
 

00:05:51 David Mathias

Every man carried a couple mills bombs?

00:05:53 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes.

00:05:55 David Mathias

And how long were you personally in the wood? having got in.

00:05:58 Gwilym Blair

About early in the morning at dawn. We went over at dawn and it took us about ten minutes or so to cross into the wood.

Then we worked up slowly then, as far as the railway.

And we were held up there and we dug in there. Then about half past two in the afternoon, we were ordered to go forward to take wood. But there was nothing there. The wood was gone.

00:06:31 [unknown speaker 1]

Well, they must must have been fighting like that on the [right-hand?] side. [?] Whilst the left hand side was clear.

00:06:40 David Mathias

So, but did you meet much opposition? On your side of the wood?

00:06:40 David Mathias

00:06:43 Gwilym Blair

 No, no, no.

00:06:44 [unknown speaker 1]

But you got the machine gun?

00:06:48 Gwilym Blair

Oh yes, we scuppered the machine and then we went up. There was a trench that went up alongside the left side of the, on the western side of the, the left side of the wood, so it was right up as far as the, as far as the railway which was, went across. And we went forward after that in the afternoon.

We held, held the, formed up on the, on the, where did that be the north side. Far end of the wood. We took up the position. And we held that overnight.

And then about, what should say, nine or ten o'clock in the morning. We were relieved.

We went back, back to, towards a little place called Bray [Bray-sur-Somme?] about four or five kilometres behind Mametz.

00:07:43 [unknown speaker 1]

What sort of casualty?

What sort of casualties did you have?

00:07:51 Gwilym Blair

Well, I was one of, I was one of 300 going in, I was one of 30 left.

00:07:57 [unknown speaker 1]

Did you, you lost 270 on that first day?

00:08:01 Gwilym Blair

Yes. That's the company, you see.

300 strong, going in.

00:08:10 David Mathias

Because. Companies were bigger than those days.

00:08:13 Gwilym Blair

Yeah, we used to have roughly roughly 240 and 50 and [?]

00:08:14 [unknown speaker 1]

There must have been some opposition, Mr. Williams

00:08:19 David Mathias

Well, there must have been a feather fighting on the way through that.

00:08:20 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yes.

00:08:23 [unknown speaker 1]

What was it like in the wood, was it really dense?

00:08:26 Gwilym Blair

Ohh yes, and it was damaged a lot by our shells coming over. And, and, knocking the tops of the trees off, you see, and they would, they fell down, into, into the, into the inside of the wood and, and formed quite a, a barrier.

00:08:43 [unknown speaker 1]

Well, it must have been very difficult to make any work, that seems to be.

00:08:45 Gwilym Blair

Yes. You had to push, you have to push through all, all that. You, see

00:08:48 David Mathias

Yes, it's the worst kind of terrain to fight in, isn’t it.  I think it's the worst kind of area to, to be in.

00:08:53 Gwilym Blair

Yes. Yes.

And one thing I must tell you about is this, a lot of it was our own artillery, that killed our chaps you know.

So it was going too fast for the, the barrage to rise a 100 yards every five minutes.

00:09:11 [unknown speaker 1]

These were the 18 bounders, presumably?

00:09:15 Gwilym Blair

Yes. And a lot of them, a lot of casualties must have been caught by dead American ammunition.

00:09:29 David Mathias

I did mention that if you remember a lot of the casualties caused by yes, it is the time that we have been explained. American animation.

[chatter ?]

00:09:39 Gwilym Blair

And not only not only not only did it [occur?] there, but before we went into the wood [?]

These premature explosions took place in when we were in the trenches there in Givenchy [?]

00:09:57 [unknown speaker 1]

Well, you mean this was sort of airburst?

00:09:59 Gwilym Blair

Best. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And way back, you see. Before you got to the target. It couldn't have been shrapnel. Too far back.

00:10:12 David Mathias

And so, what stage did you get commission, Mr. Williams? When? When did you get commissioned?

00:10:21 Gwilym Blair

March 1917.

00:10:24 David Mathias

So that's the following year.

00:10:26 Gwilym Blair

I came back in [?], I think that. I went to Wrexham to wait for a vacancy at the Cadet School. And then, they pushed it to Oxford, Trinity, Trinity, Collage Oxford.

Commissioned then. And when from there to, and you’ll laugh at this, I got my posting instructions form the War Office to go to Kinmel Park. I went up large as life, put in at the [?] in Kinmel Park, in Abergele, don’t know if you know it, Abergele, and went up to the camp, reported to the officer in charge there.

He sat down and started laughing, said ‘don’t know what the man in the war office said, but the battalion left a fortnight ago.. on to Redcar’, ‘you best go back to the [beehive?] stay the night and come and get a [warrant?] from me in the morning’.

And that’s what I did

00:11:54 [unknown speaker 1]

Did you have, when you were commissioned? Did you have some choice of which regiment you could go?

00:11:59 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes, the right foot down, I was foolish really, because I wanted to go back to the RWF where I put down any Welsh unit you see, and they must have taken the Welsh Regiment and they put me in the Welsh Regiment.

00:12:15 David Mathias

Which battalion, did you go into then?

00:12:18 Gwilym Blair

The Cardiff City Battalion .. the 16th Welsh.

00:12:26 David Mathias

So both the battalions were the 16th then.

00:12:29 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes, yes, but.

When they when they reorganized a number companies to battalions, they cut them down to 4 to 3. They transferred me into the 9th Welsh

00:12:53 David Mathias

And, where would they serve it? Did you go back to France with that battalion? Did you go back to France?

00:12:59 Gwilym Blair

I was actually in France. No, I went. I went to. I went.

00:13:06 Gwilym Blair

I went to France and joined the Cardiff City Battalion, in France. And then when they reorganized them, they simply transferred from one division to another, you see.

00:13:21 David Mathias

And that was in 1917.

00:13:22 Gwilym Blair

1917, yes.

00:13:23 [unknown speaker 1]

Which part of the front? Was the Cardiff City Battalion based.

00:13:27 Gwilym Blair

Ohh. We were in [Armentières?] [Belguim]

00:13:35 [unknown speaker 1]

Ah, you were up in Belgium then.

00:13:35 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes, yes. Then we went from there up to Dickebusch[?] in [?]

00:13:46 [unknown speaker 1]

And that would have been Ypres

00:13:48 Gwilym Blair

Yes.

00:13:52 David Mathias

And did you then stay with the 9th battalion Mr. Williams?

00:13:54 Gwilym Blair

Yes, stayed with the 9th and we went south, you see.

When the French, when the French revolted, they left a big gap in the line. We had to go from the north to the South to fill that up.

And we went down on that road and that's where we stayed until the last push in 18.

[?] I pitched in that [?]

00:14:27 David Mathias

You were pinched. [?]

00:14:29 [unknown speaker 1]

There that’s how [?] POW’s [?]

00:14:31 Gwilym Blair

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

When they made the attack with the battalion at [?]. The actual day it stared I was in Paris on leave. I got back. And in the morning, it was [?] pack everything up, we have to move first thing in the morning.

Next, in buses, going up the Rhine [?] and the first contact we had were 5 9s dropping in amongst us.

You can have the buses and started marching forwards up, five miles drop it in the road in front of us and come into orders[?] and we dispersed them. And manned a wood there. We held, kept {?] overnight, and in the morning, they came up from behind.

They had broken through between [?] and [Rahms?] and penetrated 20 kilometres behind the line, across the old [?], trench that we dug from north to south.

And I found out then, we were attacked from behind.

00:16:09 David Mathias

How much resistance did you? Do you know how much? How much fighting was there?

00:16:13 Gwilym Blair

Oh, very little.

00:16:16 David Mathias

Didn’t have much chance, did you?

00:16:26 Gwilym Blair

They came up, came up behind the position.

And.

Held [?] in there. And couldn’t get out. [?] artillery.

00:16:39 David Mathias

And they took you then back to Germany then, did they?

00:16:42 Gwilym Blair

Yes

00:16:45 David Mathias

So, you must have been a prisoner for, not for very long then? You must have been a prisoner for just a few months.

00:16:53 Gwilym Blair

8 months. From the end of May.

00:16:57 David Mathias

And how did they treat you as a person?

00:17:06 Gwilym Blair

[good?] Much better than I thought, than we expected.

They marched back, then to [?]

00:17:25 David Mathias

Near Somme.

00:17:24 Gwilym Blair

And then from there to [?] for interrogation. We were in [?] for a 12 days and they moved us then up to the north, right up to Stralsund which is now which is near [Schwerin or Szczecin?]. Right upon the Baltic.

00:17:58 [unknown speaker 1]

What was the food like?

00:18:00 Gwilym Blair

Oh, that was the worst, that was the worst part of it, yes. Very sloppy. Vegetable, vegetables soup all the time. The bread we had was made with potatoes.

00:18:23 [unknown speaker 1]

The bread was made with potato flowers, I see.

00:18:25 Gwilym Blair

Yeah, and.

The loaf [?] was the length of seven matchsticks, Captain Webb[?] matchstick, and about three inches square, yeah, and we used to measure each day with a Captain Webb match and cut it down, that was your day's ration.

00:18:51 David Mathias

I don't suppose that the Germans ate any better?

00:18:54 Gwilym Blair

Oh, no, no, no, no, they, they, they didn't.

And after we've been there for a while, you see.

We we were, we were sent from organizations from this country, we were send wonderful parcels, the daily post in Swansea. David Davies, David Davies’s son, the editor or owner of the daily post I believe. And they would send a parcels, wonderful parcels they were, tinned stuff, cigarettes, sweets and wonderful variety of tinned can stuff.

When they came in they used to go into the post, you see, you'd have a chip[?] to say there was a parcel. And you had to open it in front of the, in front of the staff. And then they'd take these things out and checked them. And they would put a number on it, on each can. And if you wanted anything at all you had to [?] and you’d have to open the can in front of them and empty everything.

I felt sorry for them, really. You could see their mouths watering. [?]

00:20:53 [unknown speaker 1]

But this they treat you very well.

00:20:55 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yeah. Yes, they were exceptionally good really. The [commandant?] was very reasonable.
There was one particularly nice man, he was very, very considerate, and gentlemanly really.

00:21:23 David Mathias

How did they feel then? How do you think they felt about the war?

00:21:28 Gwilym Blair

Wel they were very, they were very sorry that they were in opposition to us. The ones that I came in contact with.

We had a, for example, a look after our particular part of the hut in which we were, you see the room. He was a [avid gardener?]. He had a little granddaughter about, what did you say, 7 or 8. He used to bring this little girl in and [?] he would sit down and he'd talk to us.

And there was another [rebel?] on the other side [?].

He had a brother who was a doctor and a prisoner in this country. So he was very sympathetic to us.

00:22:28 [unknown speaker 1]

Did you ever get any mail? Did you ever get any mail, letters from home there too?

00:21:33 Gwilym Blair

Oh yeah. There was some interception [?] particularly the carton of cigarettes.

One of my colleagues in the office used to send me a hundred, every week a hundred. They straight cut. Never got any of them.

00:22:56 [unknown speaker 1]

But when you got the bread ration, it used to come a week at a time. It used to get used to get one loaf to last you a week.

00:23:02 Gwilym Blair

Yes, after we got these parcels, you see, we were able to form a mess [of four?]. And we could draw whatever they wanted each day. And then we arranged through the [Red Cross?] to get loaves of bread and laden bread from Denmark. Long French rolls, you see. And we used to keep those. They were very, very good.

00:23:34 [unknown speaker 1]

Those were the ones, those were the ones used to measure off with matchsticks?

00:23:36 Gwilym Blair

No, no, no, no, no, that was, that was, that was what we had to buy from the Germans.

00:23:44 [unknown speaker 1]

You had to buy it?

00:23:45 Gwilym Blair

We had to buy it, yes.

00:23:47 [unknown speaker 1]

You bought food.

00:23:48 Gwilym Blair
We bought food, yes

00:23:51 [unknown speaker 1]

Did you get the money from?

Were you issued, where you issued with money every week or every month?

00:23:59 Gwilym Blair

No, you could cash a cheque anytime you like through Dutch bankers. They charged a terrific commission on it.

00:24:10 [unknown speaker 1]

You were better off than they were in the last war.

00:24:21

But we didn't, we didn't buy it very frequently. Only as little as we possibly could[?]. Because they had, they had, they charged a tremendous commission.

00:24:39 David Mathias

That's interesting. Going back to the fighting involved, and the trench warfare that we hear so much about it nowadays and how terrible it was.

00:24:51 Gwilym Blair

I was in the, I was in the, in the salient, in Ypres, within the 16th Royal Welsh. Before I was commissioned. And we, I was there for 18 months. Trench warfare there.

00:25:11 David Mathias

This is when, we're talking about, before the Somme, before the Somme.

00:25:13 [unknown speaker 1]

Before the before the before.

00:25:15 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yes, yes, yes, 1915 now.

00:25:18 David Mathias

Now, so you went right through it because you have.

00:25:21 Gwilym Blair

I would, we went in, we went in to, we went into Festubert[?]. We went there first of all, the 16th Royal Welsh. And, we held that for about two or three months. Then we moved from there to Givenchy, and we held that, and I was there for about, the best part, the best part of [12?] months. Then I moved, we moved to the Royal Division and moved up at the [Ypres] Salient. We were there for 18 months. And it's from there that I came back to this country to, to the cadets school.

00:26:00 David Mathias

I see. So, and that's after the Somme then as well, isn't it?

00:26:04 David Mathias

Well, yeah, yeah.

00:26:06 David Mathias

Well, you must be very lucky with Williams because there's so many Over that period, you must have been one of the lucky ones.

00:26:17 Gwilym Blair

But I was, I was there when the Canadians were gassed, you know, in the Salian.
[?]
They didn’t come as far as us.

But we went in, when we went in to hold the line, we were carrying Canadian bodies out [?]. We were picking up the [communication?] trenches. [?] gas.. their bodies slung up on top of the parapet
00:26:50 David Mathias

A terrible experience

[?]

00:26:55 [unknown speaker 1]

What was it? What was it like in the winter?

00:27:00 Gwilym Blair

In Givenchy, you know what the duckboards were don’t you? Well, they'd have the duckboards along the, along the trench. And they’d be floating in water. You'd have to run along. Run along there.

I remember, you know, in Givenchy, we had to take in battalion of [band two’s?]

00:27:26 David Mathias

Yes, small men.

00:27:26 Gwilym Blair

To, to break them in, you see. To, to, give then instruction. And, I remember taking up the, to the line. And having to run across these, these duckboards, you know. And the things were sinking and poor little, poor little, poor little [?] out, out of sight.

00:27:55 [unknown speaker 1]

Were they really? That much water.

00:28:01 Gwilym Blair

We used to, we used to have to wear these long gumboots really, you know.

00:28:06 [unknown speaker 1]

Wellingtons. Like fishing waders?

00:28:06 Gwilym Blair

Yes, waders, waders

And in order to get along the trenches, through the mud, you couldn't get your foot out unless you got hold of your boot. And pull it out. Down right up, right up to your knees.

0:28:30 David Mathias

You do hear about this, you see.

00:28:34 [unknown speaker 1]

I mean, they couldn't issue every man with a pair of waders, could they?

00:28:30 Gwilym Blair

No, but most of them.

00:28:45 David Mathias

The, um, yes. We hear so much about life in the trenches. But what, is it as, obviously it was very bad and it was a very, very tough life. But how did you feel as, as young men at that time? How was it to you? How did you feel about the situation and the trench warfare that you were in?

 

00:29:06 Gwilym Blair

Oh, well, strange, strange enough, the morale. The morale, whatever, seemed to be quite, quite good. Very good morale. There's only one incident where, uh, it got a little out. We were in the Givenchy and the ‘rum jar’ [improvised trench mortar], you know, you know, it means what by ‘rum jar’.

And, and, and the shell is shaped like a, like a, like a rum jar. And that used to come over tumbling in the air, you see. That landed on the, on the parapet in front of the place where I had a section of four men with me.

One of them stayed, the other [?] off.

00:29:56  David Mathias

You must have, um, lost a lot of very good friends. Over that period. How did that affect you, Mr. Williams? How did you, how did you feel at the end of the war? Because it was a very, it was a revolutionary period, um, for this country, wasn't it? Um, I think feelings changed.

00:30:16 Gwilym Blair

Well, the only relief that I, the only feeling that I had was a sense of relief to get back to civil life at all. I never, I never used to think very much about it. I just kept on. Occasionally, very occasionally, if we, if we met, if we met somebody, we'd been in the same unit, like I guess we would talk about it. About these various incidents.

While I was, I was in Givenchy, when they blew up four or five mines, you know. T there was a lot of mining there.

And in, in, in our brigade, we had, in our division, probably, had a couple of battalions of Welsh miners, you know, in the Welsh regiment, 13th or 14th, I didn't know what?

00:30:13 [unknown speaker]

But it was a, how did, when, when, in the winter, when you were actually in the trenches there, how did you feed, or did they bring you a hot meal up once in a while, or I mean, what happened? How did you go on to food?

00:30:24 Gwilym Blair

 

Well, we got for food, we used to have ration parties. Bringing our rations, you see.

You get a loaf of bread, perhaps divide it between three or four.

00:31:36 [unknown speaker]

But when did you get anything hot?

[end of side 1]

 

Tâp 1 Ochr 2

 

00:31:43 Gwilym Blair

And roast it over there.

00:31:45 [unknown speaker 1]

So, you were really cooking for yourself? In the front line.

00:31:48 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

In the winter evenings, they used to bring up great big canisters strapped on their back. [?] They used to bring those up. They're the thermoses, really. And then they used to dish those.

00:32:16 David Mathias

I read that in the early morning, the smoke could be seen rising from the German trenches as they were making their breakfast.

00:32:25 Gwilym Blair

Yes. And we could smell their bacon.

00:32:26 David Mathias

Yeah, it was that close to you?

00:32:30 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yes. Oh dear, you could lob a hand grenade just like that from one front line to the other.

00:32:42 [unknown speaker 1]

Mr. Williams reckoned that he could get a grenade to burst anywhere you like.

00:32:49 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes. Used to if we had five 5 seconds fuses.

We used to count up to 103. 100 and one, 100 and two, 100 and three. And throw, you see.

I would count up to four and throw it and sling it up and it would burst.

00:33:17 [unknown speaker]

And get an air burst.

00:33:18 Gwilym Blair

Yeah. Long before it landed. You've got to gauge it to such an extent, really, that you could do it with ease.

00:33:28. David Mathias

And these are mills bombs.

00:33:35 Gwilym Blair

Yes.

00:33:37

[chatter?]

00:33:55 Gwilym Blair

I'm going out here and have a chat. You get a candle, you light it, and stick it on top of the sandbag. Pull your shirt off. Turn it inside out. And then get the seam in your hand, you see, one end of the shirt, in one hand and the other. Pull the old shirt out by the seam, you see, and then run the seam through the candle and you, you can hear the pop-pop.

00:34:29 [unknown speaker 2]

How old were you, Williams?

00:34:33 Gwilym Blair

I joined up in the...

00:34:43 [unknown speaker 1]

How often did you get a bath?

00:34:46 [unknown speaker 1]

Bath? When you came out of the trench, you see, you have to do it in periods of four days in the front line, four days in in support, four days in reserve.

So you're in a period of twelve days.

00:35:03 [unknown speaker 1]

So by the time you got your last four days, that was the time you got to go back.

00:35:12 Gwilym Blair

Then you went out on what they called rest. Yes, right. But this is that the rest that.

You could sleep a bit at night, but you had to go, in the early evening, early evening, early night, you had to go up carrying trench [posts?] and ammunition boxes.

00:35:35 [unknown speaker 1]

Yes.

So you actually on your rest day you were actually fatigue battalion.

00:35:36 Gwilym Blair

Yeah.

00:35:41 David Mathias

That must be a very monotonous routine.

00:35:44 Gwilym Blair

And then you'll be called up to dig a fresh trench, [a week?]. And you have to dig that. Six feet down, six feet long.

And they're reckoning. A team of three, we let them, should do that in half an hour. It was all right in certain places. It's all right in because it was sandy. But when you went further south, you had to dig in chalk.

[chatter ?]

00:36:27  [unknown speaker 2]

I think we all said, Mr Williams, when we were there. It looked terrible to dig in. When we were there in the summer, it was hot and dry of course. And it looked terrible.

00:36:39 Gwilym Blair

Oh, you went as well, did you?

00:36:39 [unknown speaker 2]

I told you I went for the beer. Or the wine, I should say.

00:36:44 Gwilym Blair

Yeah. Don't talk about beer. A couple of fellows from my home were in another battalion, in the West Regiment, but in the same brigade, [?] home on one occasion.

And when they got home, [?] pub [?] What if a beer like that? It’s like  spoiled water.

00:37:22 [unknown speaker 1]

But when you were at the Mametz, was there anything in the village? Was anybody living in the village?

00:37:28 Gwilym Blair

No, no.

No, the only thing. Only place we use to go...[?] glass of wine…coffee.. It was in the little [?] out behind. We use to go to Parez. And we could go in there afterwards.

00:37:58 David Mathias

Yes, all those villages had been rebuilt, exactly as they were before the war. And exactly the same scale.

00:38:12 Speaker 4

Yes, that's right. Yes, that place we went for lunch when they weren’t expecting us.  o you know, [?], they suddenly produced a lunch for about 30 of us. It was very good.

00:38:31 David Mathias

You must have watched then the complete transformation of the countryside, Mr. Williams. You must have watch the complete transformation of the countryside as the war progressed. And you must have seen all these villages being reduced to rubble. And the woods being demolished, and the fields being churned up.

00:38:55 David Mathias

You know, a very extraordinary thing, not only noticed by myself, but a scores of other people tell us that I've heard these and remarked about the same thing.

You'd march along, you'd come to Crossroads, and you'd know that they'd have a crucifix. They're probably there still.

On the Crossroads, they'd have a cross, you see, with a figure.

they would stay there permanently. Even thou these crossroads were shelled. Everything else got knocked out. And the big shells in the road, on the crossroads, where they'd had direct hits on the crossroads. But not a mark. Not even a splinter.

And you had the same kind of thing, you see, in [Arras?]

And then, they believed then, at that particular time, they [shelled?] early on in the war, the cathedral and the figure of the angel on the top, you see, was leading forward, as though it was falling. They said, when that angel falls, it will be at the end. And I think they came right too.

00:40:31 [unknown speaker 1]
But it actually fell in November 18, 2018.

00:40:34 Gwilym Blair

Yes.

00:40:40 [unknown speaker 1]

It's funny, it's funny would say, there’s a great [?] in these, these crossroads, the crucifixes on the roadside [?]

00:40:55 David Mathias

As young men, how did you feel about the Germans? When you were actually fighting. How was your attitude towards the Germans, towards the war itself?

00:41:06 Gwilym Blair

Well it varied, sometimes you'd curse them [?]

If a prisoner was taken, for example, we used to treat it like he was one of our own.

00:41:25 [unknown speaker 1]

I think that's a fair comment. Because it was like that in the last war. You know, people become rather primitive. When you get in a one-to-one situation. Because it's kill or be killed. And you don't really get my time to feel sorry for the other people.

00:41:42 Gwilym Blair

If you were advancing towards the Germans and the bullet was popping round about you. You felt all right. We’ll get at you. Then you, you really, you know, felt angry about it. And you get hardened.
 

00:42:03 David Mathias

You had to work yourself up for an attack.

00:42:13 Gwilym Blair

Well, [get to the other side?] and it’s either you or me.

00:42:19 David Mathias

But as far as people volunteer was concerned, Mr. Williams, the youth of this country must be very eager to get out to France and to win the war.

00:42:25 Gwilym Blair

Well, we couldn't get out there fast enough.

00:42:31 David Mathias

There was this tremendous national spirit was yeah, yeah.

00:42:37 Gwilym Blair

Well, you had queues at the recruitment offices.

00:42:41 [unknown speaker 2]

We couldn't understand, knowing how many were being killed.

00:42:47Gwilym Blair

The queues in 1914 were as long as the queues of the unemployment insurance today. I couldn't get them in fast enough.

00:43:00 [unknown speaker 1]

But what was your training like before you went out to France? When you go tout there, did you reckon, that you were trained? Did you reckon you were a trained soldier by the time you got out?

 

00:43:08 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I used to do a lot of bayonetting. I used to do a lot of bomb-throwing. Shooting. Rifle practice, you see.

And they were very, very, keen on fitness.

00:43:33 [unknown speaker 1]

Yeah, but you reckon you had good training. Before you went out.

00:43:38 Gwilym Blair

Yes, yes.

[chatter ?]

00:43:54 Gwilym Blair

We were still civilians compared with what we were going to oppose. Because they were regular German soldiers and had been in the army for years.

And that prevailed until, well, into 1918

00:44:14 David Mathias

Did you have this, um. You obviously respected the Germans as Soviets because they were good soldiers. Did you feel you were as good as them, man for man? Or did you feel inferior?

00:44:26 David Mathias

No, no. We were competent in that respect. That chaps could do quite as well.
 

00:44:39 David Mathias

You weren't as well equipped as the Germans though, were you? They had a good equipment. And the trenches were better on the whole.

00:44:50 Gwilym Blair

Yes. They built better trenches than we did.

00:44:55 [unknown speaker 2]

Why was that better shovel?

00:45:02 Gwilym Blair

You see, in the early, in the early days of the war, you see, anybody over 40 in Germany was recruited for supporting the troops. They did not. They were not the actual refighting unit. But they had. They were pioneers. Well, they'd come up to build these bridges and dig these [dugouts?].

[chatter about digging?]

00:46:20 Gwilym Blair

They used to have proper shovels strapped on their back you see. What we had was the old trench, trenching tool. Stepped on your bottom, across the small of your back. And then a handle, a loose handle, about 12 inches long, stuck in your belt.

[chatter?]

00:47:01 David Mathias

And where did you volunteer, Mr. Williams? Pontardawe?

00:47:05 David Mathias

Well I had to cheat in fact to get in, you know.

00:47:12 David Mathias

It's near Swansea.

00:47:14 Gwilym Blair

North of Swansea.

00:47:19 Gwilym Blair

I went with seven fellows in in the office. ‘Hey, we’re going up to volunteer, are you coming?’

I said, all right, I'm going.

When it came to a question with the test you see, with using classes. I said, alright, I'll get some out.

00:47:39 [unknown speaker 1]

We're you're wearing glasses, then?

00:47:52 Gwilym Blair

Then an old pal of mine who worked with Wallace's in London

He came home and leave. And we were talking together. And he said, what about [?] you can get in… [?]

00:48:18 Gwilym Blair

When you said you would join the join the battalion [?] his brother was in Lampeter, in college at the time he knew that we were pals.

We joined up [?]. Had to have a local doctor you see, a local doctor was allowed to examine us. So we got the forms from Swansea, filled them in, took them to see our doctor [?] he gave us a test. And he said alright. We took this one, and they gave us a shilling. And then [?] us up to Llandudno.

00:49:17 David Mathias

My uncle was in the RWF. The 14th RWF.

00:49:26 Gwilym Blair

Carmarthen battalion

00:49:36 David Mathias

I didn't realize that. I wondered why he was in the RWF. I thought they poaching again, you know? I thought the RWF had been poaching form South Wales.

00:49:37 Gwilym Blair

Oh no no. Carmarthen Battalion. 16th Welsh, 14th

00:50:00 David Mathias

15th Welsh was Carmarthenshire as well.

00:50:09 Gwilym Blair

And the 16th was Cardiff City. The 14th Welsh were the [second??], I think.

13th Welsh and the 14th Welsh were 1st and 2nd battalions of 1st and 2nd rounder battalions. And they used to the hard [?], you know?

00:50:33

Yes, he was unfortunately. He was a gassed. And he didn't die during the war, but he died about 10 years after the war. Of the effects of gas.

00:50:44 Gwilym Blair

Well, I got a little touch of it, you know. Yeah, I got my late in 1917 in early in1918. When they were sending, when they were sending gas shells over. You hear these things, they would go up and go up and go up and go up and then they'd get a [pop?].

And they used to shell all the woods, all the small woods, round about us you see. And what happened there is he was. As these shell, you see, he would scatter this gas, liquid, all over the grass there, you see.

00:51:29 [unknown speaker 1]

Did they, did they? Did they go off on impact in the ground?  They didn't burst in the air.

00:51:37 Gwilym Blair

No, no, they spread the liquid all over the place and that would fall in the grass. And then when the troops went in, you see, particularly in the morning, when they were newer, they'd kick and they'd stir the crop and the gases would rise.

And that's how I got most of it. Walking through the woods.

You could smell the mustard.

00:52:16 Gwilym Blair

[chatter ?]

00:52:34 David Mathias

Did you have gas masks at this time?

00:52:35 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yeah, yes, yes. We had the chest respirators, strapped over your. Hung over your neck.

00:52:47 David Mathias

And were they effective? Did they do the job? But were they effective?

00:52:51 Gwilym Blair

But the first ones we had, you know, were just [?] steeped in carbolic acid. Or a solution of carbolic acid, yeah. Because it couldn't be a thing, the acid itself, or it would burn us. But they were just loose, loose things, you see, with just ordinary glass eye pieces. And you pull that over your head, you see, like a pillowcase. And you just pushed it down inside your collar. And those were the first ones.

Then they brought out one end with a tube which you could put in your mouth, you see. And the trouble was, the [?] the were terribly hot, you see, and there was no air in that. So that's why they got this tube. And you used to put this old tube in your mouth, and one used to blow out, you see. They just rubber pieces on the end, you see. And those things made very rude noises.

Then they had the one with the mask, you see, which went over your head. And you had to put that on in six seconds and pull it out of the cage, you see. There was a canister, you see, filled with charcoal inside this box. And down one side would be the face piece, you see. And down the other would be the canister of the charcoal. So you had to, if you had the alarm, you had six seconds to pull that out and slap it on.

Yeah, and then you wore it at the alarm, you see, while you were in the transit or anywhere in the [?]. But you could swing it and carry it alongside you.

[?]

 

00:55:25.780 David Mathias

But being Welsh soldiers, Mr. Williams, I know the Welsh character. They must have a lot of fun together, even though the war was going on. There must have been a lot of laughs.

00:55:39 Gwilym Blair

We use to play football in the orchards, play rugby amongst the trees.

Yes, I carried a rugby ball with me. It was always on the top of the pack.

And whenever we fell out, if we were staying, anything, ‘Gwilym Williams, let’s have the ball.’

00:56:10 David Mathias

Yes, the Welsh regiment has the honor of playing rugby under fire in [?]. They played the New Zealand gunners.

00:56:19 Gwilym Blair

WE have a very good 58th Division team, you know.

Will Lewis[?] and Davies, [?] Davies, Reverand [A?] Davies. Use to forward to Swansea.

 

[chatter?]

00:57:13 Gwilym Blair

[J?] Williams, Cardiff.

00:57:15 David Mathias

And did you carry on playing then after the war? Did you. Pontardawe?

00:57:20 Gwilym Blair

Oh, yes.

00:57:28 [unknown speaker 1]

How long did you stay in Wales then after the war?

00:57:33 Gwilym Blair

I stayed in Pontardawe until 1928. Then went to Cardiff, job in Cardiff. Stayed in Cardiff for 9 years.

then came here. January 1st, 1930, 1935.

00:58:00 [unknown speaker 1]

So you were born in Cardiff?

00:58:07 David Mathias

What is your profession Mr. Williams?

00:58:15 Gwilym Blair

A bit varied. No, I was. I was in the account department of a steelworks [?].

Then I started a coal business with two of my friends [?] then we were truck by the 1926 strikes, and we had no more, not enough capital, so we had to pack it in.

Then I got a job with,  in the government exchange to stark off with stand up with [?]

00:59:09.900 [unknown speaker 1]

And then you became a civil servant then.

00:59:13 Gwilym Blair

No, that was until I [?] was established, it was temporary there. That only lasted a few weeks. Then I got a job in Cardiff with [averies?] selling commercial scale. And then I was with them for three years. Then I went, took over a job with a sales manager for another Sheffield firm. They made scales and [?] and vending machines. And I worked with them for four years. And then things got very bad in the [?] all the shops close up [?]

[?]

01:00:10 Gwilym Blair

I had to go into hospital in Cardiff for an operation.

..carry on like this so she applied for a job in teaching. Applied for a job in Devon and we moved down here to Devon.

I hadn’t properly recovered from this operation. So, I didn't do anything for about six months. But I went to sign on, you see. And the manager for the North Devon area, stationed in Barnstable, was a Welshman.

So the local chap at Torrington said to me, ‘why don’t you go over and see the Welsh man in Barnstable?’. And I went over, so I saw him. I went back home and in a couple of days a telephone message for me to come over and have a word.

If I was prepared to put up with being pushed about all over the office. I got a job over a week or ten days, a lot of my staff are down at the flu. If you're prepared to do that, the job is yours.

I said all right I’ll be over within the hour, and I jumped in the car and went over. The week extended to [20?] years.
 

01:02:15 [unknown speaker 1]

Well, when did you become involved in local politics then?

01:02:16 Gwilym Blair

Yeah, yeah. After I retired. I couldn’t [?] civil service you see. I couldn't take part in any form of politics.

When I retired, [?] I’ll have a crack at it.

01:02:51 [unknown speaker 1]

Where was this? Torrington?