Cyfweliad gyda’r Is-gyrnol David Mathias gan Hugh Morgan (Age Cymru Dyfed/WWVA) Mawrth 2025

Trawsgrifiad o gyfweliad gan Hugh Morgan (Age Cymru Dyfed/WWVA) gyda'r Is-gyrnol David sy'n ymdrin â'i ymdrechion yn yr 1980au i gofnodi atgofion cyn-filwyr y Rhyfel Byd Cyntaf cyn i'w straeon fynd ar goll.

[wedi'i greu 04/07/2025]

Trawsgrifiad [ar gael yn Saesneg yn unig]

00:00:00 Hugh Morgan

So this is a an interview with Lieutenant Colonel David Matthias who in the late 1970s early 1980s recorded a number of veterans of the Great War talking about their experiences during that the 1914 to 1918 war. It's a unique set of recordings.

These will be uploaded to and published on the West Wales Veterans Archive, which is on People's Collection Wales, and the National Library of Wales. David, I wonder if I could ask you what motivated you to collect these stories when you did?

00:00:39 David Mathias

Well Hugh, there was a general interest in history. I was serving at the time in the army and naturally with that kind of interest in in military history.

I never studied history at school, but the military brought that out.

It's a bit of a coincidence really. I was speaking with a fellow officer in Aldershot in 1981. We were discussing history and particularly we were talking about the Welsh involvement and the 38th Welsh Division, which was of interest to me then.

Which fought, of course, on on the the Somme, Battle of Mametz Wood, a very famous battle now, but at that point there was a relatively unknown battle. Very few people had never heard of that battle. And out of the blue this officer said to me, well, he said.

I've got a neighbour; he said in Byfleet. Who fought in Mametz Wood.

I said, really. He said yes, he said. Would you like to meet him? I said well, I'd be honoured. Delighted to meet him.

And one thing led to another. I then went and bought a small cassette recorder and asked if I could record this gentleman Gwilym Blair Williams, was his name. He was a Swansea man but was now living in Byfleet for many years and that led to a delightful evening with this gentleman in which I recorded him my I think for over about an hour and a half.

In which he spoke lucidly and clearly about his experiences, he was taken prisoner of war after the Somme and taken back to Germany as a prisoner. His recollections of the war were immensely clear, crystal clear.

As were his recollections of life in Wales before the war, and I think that that's of interest as well, talks about the Swansea Valley, talks about Llanelli, and how life was before the war.

00:02:52 Hugh Morgan

So it's a social history as well.

00:02:54 David Mathias

It's a social history as well, but primarily a military one because, I  was I was adlibbing should say as an interviewer and and and going along with him and and and teasing information out of him.

Now what's interesting about that particular recording is that a couple of years ago I was contacted by the gentlemen's grandson, through a friend, and he remembered me. He remembered me recording his grandfather, and he asked me if I still had the audio tapes. And as it happens, I did. I did nothing with them in the intervening years 40 odd years have passed since then, so that's prompted me to transfer the recordings on to CD's, which I then sent to the family, and the family were absolutely over the moon with the recordings.

00:03:54 Hugh Morgan

I think you know, you showed enormous foresight, there, in recording these veterans of the Great Wall, yes, when he was still able to, when we were still able to as a society.

00:04:02 David Mathias

Well, this is. This is exactly the point and and that's what stopped me and having having done this once with Gwilym Blair Williams, it's been such a success that it prompted me to want to do more. It made me think, just as you've explained, you made me think, well, actually there must be others out there now and and time is marching on. And I'm in a position. I think. To contact these people.

00:04:32 Hugh Morgan

So how many? How many veterans?  Of the Great War have you interviewed?

00:04:33 Hugh Morgan

Nine in total, one of one of them was a German, stationed in Germany. Then later on later in the 80s and.

00:04:45 David Mathias

Another interesting story I commanded several German civilians in my squadron, and I frequently go and have coffee with them and chat and so on. And we talked about the more wars and one of them mentioned that he had an uncle, I think 1 relative.

00:05:04 David Mathias

Heinrich Krappen. And would I like to meet him? Absolutely. So off I went again with my little recorder and we recorded Heinrich Krappen.

00:05:15 Hugh Morgan

And you and you work through an interpreter.

00:05:17 David Mathias

We had an interpreter as well. Now, what’s interesting with Heinrich, was he served in both world wars

00:05:24 Hugh Morgan

Did he really. Wow. So so he he was a POW, in World War1

00:05:30 David Mathias

No, he. No, he wasn't a POW. He fought in the First World War and then was recalled. I think as a reservist in the Second World War [?] exactly how, but he certainly was in both world wars.

00:05:30 Hugh Morgan

OK, So what? So, Heinrich, what did he do in the First World War?

00:05:47 David Mathias

He was in a machine gun company, so.

00:05:50 David Mathias

So he saw active service on the front line. It's really interesting. Hmm.

And again, the great privilege to meet this gentleman and and hear him talk.

00:06:03 Hugh Morgan

Do you know what he then did in in World War 2 when he was in the reserve?

00:06:07 David Mathias

I've got a I've got a feeling he was involved in home defence. Something like the Western Wall. I think he was involved.

00:06:21 Hugh Morgan

Oh waw. Building the defences

00:06:24 David Mathias

Yeah. I can’t remember rightly. But it's all in his, in his recording. It's all there.

00:06:34 Hugh Morgan

Yes, absolutely. OK. So in terms of the? Geographical spread. We have somebody in Germany, somebody in Blyfleet in Surrey. But the remainder are focused in the Carmarthenshire area.

00:06:55 David Mathias

Yes. That's because this is my home. And I was in contact here with the veteran communities, so I then spoke with people like my father, who was also a World War 2 veteran, and I just raised the question, are there any World War One veterans that you might know and the names started to come up.

There weren't many of them left at this point in the 80s, but there were sufficient for me to to go and record and just by asking people and then the names started to come out of the woodwork and and now have you spoken to such and such? No. Well, I'll find out where he is and. I drove that a little bit and and then was determined to find as many as I could. One of them out of interest is Reg Fry.

He was the last Llanelli World War One soldier to die, and I recorded him not not long before he died in 1988 and he was he was buried with a military funeral, buried in old old Old Road Town Cemetery.

00:08:02 Hugh Morgan

And what did Reg do?

00:08:03 David Mathias

Reg Fry was in the Welsh Regiment as an infantryman, but he was conscripted, and he served in the latter part of the war. He’s actually from Summerset. Came to Llanelli for work and was conscripted into the Army, and he was the very last one I recorded. But the several before him, but all in this area, Burry Port and Llanelli.

00:08:33 Hugh Morgan

So I mean it's a really important part of the local history and I think the again in that period before World War One, there was quite a a migration of people from Somerset, from Bristol, from further South and Somerset who came across to Wales, particularly this part of Wales and Llanelli, Swansea and Neath Port Talbot and so on to to seek gainful employment. And remained here. Their families remain here and grew up.

00:08:52 David Mathias

Yes. Absolutely.

I mean, there are others there that yeah, come to come to mind. Alf Dixon.

He wasn't a local man at all. He was stationed here before the First World War. Was the [?] artillery and they were stationed in Pembrey, in Cefn Sidan, he met a local girl that stayed. So he's another example of an outsider has come in. But a couple of other interesting ones before I forget.

I was very privileged to be involved in the placing of the Welsh dragon that the Mametz Wood. In 1986, [198]7. I think it was. My squadron delivered the Dragon, which had been built in Wales by a Welsh sculptor, had been on display in Cardiff and then.

Was moved down to the channel by the Army and I was tasked then to collect it from Calais and take it to a grid reference in France. It it I I wasn't told it was a dragon in a box. I was just told of moving a case from point A to point B.

When I looked at the grid reference of point B, it was in the middle of the battle of the Somme area and I knew immediately that this was the dragon. So my squadron delivered it and and deposited it next to the plinth which on which it now stands.

00:10:27 Hugh Morgan

It was quite a thrill.

00:10:28 David Mathias

A great thrill. And great, great, proud, great, proud, proud moment. And as a result of that, I was invited to the unveiling of the memorial the following year. Another great privilege.

But at that event I met some of the veterans of that battle.

Who I went on to record, Gwyn Morris of Swansea and Ivor Watkins of Swansea and having just met these men that you know at the site and chatting with them exchanged exchange addresses like him recorded them well, yes.

00:11:08 Hugh Morgan

So would you like to go through each of the individuals?

00:11:11 David Mathias

Yeah, that's what I can remember here. Gwilym Williams, I mentioned earlier was, was wonderful to to speak to great sense of humour.

00:11:21 Hugh Morgan

What did he do later in life?

00:11:22 David Mathias

Life. Very good question. I don't know. He was commissioned in the First World War. He was an officer, you know, donned to be commissioned. I don't know what he did afterwards. And I'm afraid I can't remember that.

Albert Wheeler, in Barry Port again.

I don't remember much about that recording that he was in the three Welsh regiments for some. For some reason he served in all three regiments.  In 1982 I recorded him.

00:11:54 Hugh Morgan

Now, I believe he was the veteran who, when when you interviewed him, he came out with all of these rhymes from World War One.

00:12:04 David Mathias

That's correct. That is correct.

00:12:07 Hugh Morgan

Yeah. Yeah, they're quite extraordinary. And it just takes you back.

To that moment in time during those four years in the trenches, looking at the hun, above coming down and and firing on the trenches and the rhymes.  And the rhymes Tommy's made-up.

00:12:34 David Mathias

And how these little things. Little other but how these relatively benign things take on the importance. And that's interesting point you make.

As I mentioned earlier, I think these gentlemen, I think they're very they're very modest people to start with. Almost invariably you never hear any of them bragging or saying I did this. I did that. They keep things to themselves and either because they're modest.

And or because. They'd rather not talk; you know about events that they might want to forget and and certainly most of them that I met and had never spoken to their families about this. The families knew that they'd been in the war, but they respected their, you know, their, not talk, not talking so much about it. But when you come along and.

If you are a soldier yourself, they tend to have a different attitude towards you and they tend to want to talk.

This is particularly the case of my video recordings of the Second World War channel we all talk about today, but almost invariably I felt that they were very, very, very ready to talk.

As the time had come, they were of a certain age. You know, they didn't have many years left when they found the time was not right.

And they'll always ask them, do you want to talk about this?

00:13:55 Hugh Morgan

I think it's an extremely relevant point. I've had experiences for World War One veterans at the end of their lives, but I started off my career in the NHS. Yeah, as a trainee nurse initially.

And I can remember working on a men's surgical ward. And we had a chat who still had a gaping hole in his arm where he'd been shot in the in the trenches and another chap. And I remember his name vividly. His name was Harding, Mr Harding. And he had been a runner.

As well and he was talking to me about it within a matter of days he had died. He had come to the end of his life. But he was very, very happy to talk, so I think. This perspective that people get towards the end of their lives, not just in terms of the Great War but the Second World War as well. And they want to tell their story. Now, Dennis Tidswell, from Pembroke dock.

So Dennis contacted me after I had written a little piece and in the Observer, I think, about the West Wales Veterans Archive wanting to speak to World War 2 Veterans, Dennis contacted me at the age of 97. By e-mail, he sent me an e-mail.

I don't know if this is of interest to you, he said. But I served in the RAF throughout the Second World War, mostly on the island of Malta. I was on the I was on the phone like a cat and that was during COVID during the early part of COVID.

00:15:51 David Mathias

And you recorded him.

00:15:52 Hugh Morgan

Ohh yes, yes, extensive interviews with with Dennis served throughout the Battle of Britain.

00:15:53 David Mathias

Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Wonderful.

00:16:00 Hugh Morgan

And so on. So absolutely 2 1/2 years. 2 1/2 years, but yes.  So.

00:16:07 David Mathias

Yeah. So I mean and and then you know, as I said, this gentleman kept coming out of the woodwork and and sometimes there was months and months in between the recordings and I'd be away serving in any case. So, I could only do this when I was home on leave. You know that. That's that's how it went. Daniel Archibald Williams, Burry Port,

In 1982, now I interviewed him and I later served with his grandson. Just another coincidence, and I was probably talking about these things. And I said, oh, I recorded a a, a chap called Williams. But he said hang on it, but that's not Daniel Archibald said yes, that's my grandfather. And so I was able to make a second recording for him. Well, funny how these things, these, these things happen.

Ivor Watkins and Gwyn Morris. Both of them I met at the Mametz Wood at the unveiling of the memorial, and they were there proudly wearing their medals. It was a bit like a reunion for these guys, and they're very proud of it because.

Nowhere on the Western Front were there a memorial to the Welsh. Given that the Welsh. In both world wars, gave more men per head of the capita than any other region or even the Commonwealth. It was rather shameful that we didn't have this recognition. So the the Dragon at Mametz Wood meant an awful lot to them. So, I met them there and I saw the opportunity to go on to interview them at home, which I did on on my next leave.

Ivor Watkins and Gwyn Morris, both in Swansea, both in 1988.

Alf Dixon, we mentioned earlier.  He's very interesting because he was, as I mentioned, he was not a local man, but he was a Royal Horse Artillery before the war, serving in [?] Station in Pembre

And I vividly remember him telling me that when he was mobilized, outbreak of the war, he fought at the Battle of Mons as a gunner Battle of Mons, [?] very first battle of the war [?] and he described, and I I think he does in his in his recording how they were.

Firing your open sites into the advancing blocks of German infantry who are marching linked arms to their deaths as they as the artillery fires into them, and then once they got within visual range, they were limber up and retreated with their horses a mile or so and then wait for them to come on. And so it went on. He talked, talked about this in great detail. Alf Dixon.

00:19:03 David Mathias

Robert Owen Williams was my parents neighbour, in Llanelli, and he fought in with the 4th Welsh in Palestine and The Holy Land.

And I don't know if he was at Gallipoli. I know the battalion was a Gallipoli, whether he was there or not, I can't remember, but he certainly I I do certain well when we're talking about the Middle East and Palestine. He was wounded actually in that region, so, he was our next-door neighbour and I knew him really well, as a boy, you know.

00:19:42 Hugh Morgan

I mean, I think I think that in terms of the techniques that you've used of the small tape recorder, the C60 cassettes that we were all recording on during that period.

It was so important to do that.

It's such a shame that modern day technology, absolutely in terms of iPhones and cameras and so on, we could have captured so much more. You could have captured so more of these people at the time, but to have gathered all this unique information and to have it into a single archive on People's Collection Wales I think is going to be it's a marvellous test, testament to you and to and to them.

00:20:34 David Mathias

Thank you very much.

I'm really pleased about that. You know, you know, these recordings made a long time ago, and I'm, I'm just pleased that we've arrived at this point where I'm able to preserve them now and make them public. I'm also pleased that the tapes have survived. Because I gather, they don't live forever. And I'm delighted that they've all worked.

I mentioned Reg Fry earlier. He was the last Llanelli World War One man.

And isn't it? Doesn't. Doesn't it turn the terms of the last week or the week before we buried the last World War Two man from the Avon Valley. We buried him here in the crematorium for Llanelli. So time has marched on. But Reg was the last one here. And he was given a military funeral with the bugle and so on.

And I must tell you that I have his medals. His son didn't have children and he bequeathed the medals to me.

At the time, as a serving officer, to care for them. So that's my next task is to decide how to preserve these medals.

00:21:45 Hugh Morgan

Well for the archives and for your collection on the archives, which will be the David Matthias Great War collection. I think we should have a photograph of those. Those medals, please. Go to the site. There we've got lovely.

00:22:06 David Mathias

Yes. Without a shadow of a doubt.  I think that that's a great idea. That's a very good idea, yes.

So, I mean, is that all of them? That brings me the Heinrich Krappen again. Yeah, I I think that's about all I can. I can recall and without listening to the tapes again.

00:22:29 Hugh Morgan

Well, they'll will be uploaded. To the archive, I hope fairly soon. The sound archivists field officer with People's Collection Wales and is applying AI to the recordings to bring out the voices a little more strong, stronger than they currently are on a 40-year-old cassette tape and and so on. So that is quite a it's been quite a lengthy process.

I've heard the results of the first one that was that, that was Alber Wheeler, I think he did. I think that was all that we actually quite an improvement from the original. But it is a, it is a unique collection. It's a collection which is incredibly important to Wales.

00:23:24 David Mathias

I'm so pleased to hear that.

00:23:29 Hugh Morgan

Our task within Age Cymru Dyfed, is to get this processed as soon as we can with our colleagues in from People's Collection Wales, there get them uploaded and formally published and at that point we'll be making an announcement as well and I'm sure that we'll be getting a few quotes from you as part of that, OK.

00:23:52 David Mathias

That that's absolutely great. Yes. Well, it was a great privilege to do all this, you know, I mean. You have to make it happen, don't you? I mean, I I was quite determined to record as much as I could. Before these men faded, you know.

And when I in pursuing them, interestingly and I came across this is nothing to do with normal one well actually might be I came across two Boer War veterans.

00:24:25 Hugh Morgan

Wow.

00:24:26 David Mathias

Yeah, who of course I before my recording period. And just met them by coincidence through people I knew and and and sat in a coffee with them, and chatted about the Boer War, and one of them went on to serve in the in the First World War and was in the Home Guard in the Second World War.

00:24:47 Hugh Morgan

So, very much a Corporal Jones.

00:24:48 David Mathias

Very much a Corporal Jones character, wonderful experience. I'm looking back at it now. I was very young when I left that in my early 20s and what a privilege, privilege. And so, I remember that very clearly.

00:25:06 Hugh Morgan

Lieutenant. Colonel David Mathias. Thank you very much indeed.

00:25:10 David Mathias

Thank you very much. Thank you for interviewing me.