Ganed Kishor Barchha yn India ym 1947, a daeth i Kenya gyda'i rieni yn 2 fis oed.

Mae'n cofio diarddel Asiaid Uganda, fel yr oedd y diwrnod ar ôl ei briodas. Roedd wedi mynd ar drên 7pm o Jinja i Kenya gyda’i wraig Meenakshi, a gafodd ei geni a’i magu yn Uganda, a’i deulu pan glywsant y cyhoeddiad ar y radio. Cafodd teithwyr ar y trên 8pm eu hatal rhag mynd ar y trên gan y fyddin.

Fe wnaethon nhw ddianc o drwch blewyn yn ôl i Kenya a threulio gweddill eu hoes yno tan 2004, pan ddaethon nhw i Gymru i ymuno â’u plant oedd wedi ymgartrefu flynyddoedd ynghynt.

Trawsgrifiad o gyfweliad gyda Kishor Barchha gan Jyoti Ramjee, Robin Chaddah-Duke, a Radha Patel

Mae'r cyfweliad hwn dros ddau recordiad sain unigol.

Interview (part 1) with Kishor Barchha

My name is Kishorchandra Barchha. I was born in India in 1947, and when I was two months old, my parents, took me, they came to Kenya to settle down there, and I was brought... until 2004, I was in Kenya. Then afterward, we decided to move to London because of my children, they were all educated in London, and we wanted to join with them instead of having a separate, you know, each other.

Because we find a distance, because we are in Kenya and they are in the UK, so it's difficult for to, come in touch with each other. So we decided let's move to UK. So my son was, my elder son was settled in Wales. He was working in Wales. So we decided to come to the Wales to settle down for good.

Jyoti Ramjee: I just want to go back to your wedding day because, would you please tell us where was your wedding day and what was it like? how were you feeling? Could you explain a bit more?

Kishor: Our wedding was, arranged marriage on those days, and, our engagement lasted for one year. That was in 1971. Then we got, we decided the date and, that was, 1972, 4th of August, 1972, we had two date different dates. And I chose the date 4th of August, 1972 to get married. So from Nairobi, we travel by train to Uganda in on, fourth, on the 3rd of August 1972.

And next there was my marriage on 4th of August 1972, during the time of my marriage, when the marriage was finished, we had a lot of rumours. People were talking that, Amin of Uganda has announced that Asians are to leave within 90 days and people think that he has a dream. He always used to have a dream every now and then that I got a dream that Asians have to go. I’ve got a dream I have to do this. So everybody was thinking, nobody was serious at that time. Once my marriage was over and, things started getting serious that people were talking now, I think that things are really serious about it, and people have to leave the country.

So on 4th of August, when we got the marriage, everything was okay. And we had a parties and everything. And on 5th of August, we left by train from Jinja. I got married in Jinja, from Jinja to Nairobi, and there were two trains which were living. One was at 7:00 and another was at 8:00. So we decided to take the 7:00 train.

Now, people were worried, you see they knew that Amin is very serious about this matter. So they said at least if you can move out, better for you in time. So once when, when we are 7:00 train and lucky enough we cross the border, that was at Tororo, that was the borderline.

So before 12:00, we could manage to cross the border by train. And the second train, which was coming after us at 8:00, which left, they got stuck there because they stopped the train. Then they didn't allow anybody to cross. And all the people who are in that train, they were all detained in a school and kept there for about ten days or so, taken everything away from them and after ten days they were released. While at the time we were in Nairobi, that was on Sunday afternoon,  when we reached Nairobi and we got message that what Amin has announced is serious, and has taken the action about it, and we said, Thanks God, we are lucky that we managed to cross the border in time before 12:00 midnight, because after midnight they closed the border.

So we crossed the border and then we are in Nairobi. And, next day, my wife, she wanted to call Uganda, her parents and there was no communication because all the lines, and everything was closed down so nobody could, talk to each other. And, we were all worried, what's going on there for about, say, about ten days after ten days, then we got the connection and, they said we, we are all okay, but we have to leave this country within 90 days. And it is, the law that we have to leave, if we don't leave, then we are in problem. So they decided to leave for UK, my in-laws and everybody. And, we were stuck in Nairobi, so we couldn't do the movement to anywhere, and we were there all the time. And she was worried, my wife was worrying so much that what's going to happen to my parents, whether they will go alive or not, because it was very serious matter at that time. Nobody knew what going to happen because there was a lot of problems going around there because of military had taken over.

So I was lucky enough they could, managed to, leave, Uganda about, that was about one month before October. October? Yeah, October. Sometime in October. Yeah. And they're lucky enough they got the flight and they left Uganda and, they came to UK, my in-law, everybody. And they were, in the camps yeah Honiton camps, my in-laws were there for about 20 days...

Meenakshi: No, for a week. For a week?

Kishor: For a week. Yeah. And they were then taken by some of the relatives, they said, you don't stay in the camp, you come to our house. That was his son, I mean his brother. Yeah, my wife's brother was here in UK. So he took them and got them in the house to send to down there in London, that was in Harrow or something, isn’t it. Yeah. Uncle's place. That is what happened. This was the story about it.

I was in Nairobi because, I was a Kenyan citizen at the time, and I was, there in Nairobi. But at that time I didn't want to move to London because I wanted to stay there because I was happy over there at that time, because I had a business and everything, and I was working for the company. So I said, let me stay there. And, we both were there staying in Nairobi till 2004. Then that is the time when we decided to come over here.

Robin Chaddah-Duke: So can you tell us post, you know, the wedding and everything. What was it like living in Nairobi? Did you feel a lot of, tension from what was ongoing in Uganda in that area or was life okay? If you could just tell us a little bit about, you know, the period from the wedding to 2004, what was your life like?

Kishor: Was when in Nairobi were all right, there wasn't any problem at all for us. Well, in Uganda there was a problem going on for a quite long time. And, some people were... didn't move. They wanted to stay there. 90% of people left the country. Some people were there in Uganda, but they were staying in attention all the time, they were always hiding and everything in business and everything. And those people are there still there now. And we were in Nairobi and, we used to know all the news, what was going on. And, you know, the time, people from Uganda, when they left, left some of the people left by train after, after two, three weeks and, they were going to India because, they had only, no other place to go.

So they were going to India. So from Uganda, they had to come to Kenya, that's Nairobi, and there they have to go to Mombasa and take a ship and go to, India. So we used to go to the railway station, take some food and everything and supply to the people because they were, they were coming without anything.

They were all without any clothes, are only wearing clothes, nothing else they were having and they never had any food or anything. So we are helping them out to come out of, out of there. Then all this year I was in Nairobi and I told you that 2004, I came to Wales and settled around here. Now in Wales I've done a lot of charity job, charity work and, the cancer charity and everything from collecting funds and everything, I would distribute my service to them also in the, in this temple I've given the service to them whenever they need me. I would just come and help them out and support them every now and then. And this is, and, I'm happy to be here in in Wales because the life in Wales I find more comfortable than London, you know, hectic.

No running around, peace of mind and, atmosphere is good, environment is good. You know, even the water and everything is very, very good, actually in Wales I’ve seen than London because the water in London, you see they recycle all the time and here you get the spring water and everything. So it's a completely different life.

And, I've settled down here all this year and, for a few years I worked then I retired. And now at the moment, I'm just, more active in a sports like I do cycling, I do swimming, I do gym, I play badminton. Every day something I'm doing it. Always busy with the sports and the cycling I do all over the mountains and everywhere I go, all over on the bikes right up to from up to Cardiff.
I come on the bike on mountains and everywhere, even I go to Newport on bike about, 20, 25 miles to go cycling all over. And I enjoy myself. Also in the gym, when I go for the gym I enjoy.
I meet a lot of people and a lot of activities are there. Like, I do a group cycling over there.

It's a very tough. I do all these things, exercise and sometimes I do swimming. And once a week we play badminton, we go to a club there, and we have been playing before. We used to play in Cardiff. Now we are playing in Caerphilly and we are very good group playing all this sports and I'm enjoying my life over here, better now. So I don't feel now going back to Kenya at all. A lot of people... in the beginning I was finding it tough, for five years to settle down because it's a completely because, the, the place I left, you know, it's very difficult to forget all my life. Then slowly, slowly, I got settled down after five years.

Now I’ve forgotten everything in Kenya. I'm better off here if somebody tells me to go to settle down there. They said no. No way. I'm happier in Wales and people in Wales, they are very cooperative, very mixing and very helpful, that is a fact, Welsh people and anything if you ask them, they are very polite to answering everything. So we are comfortable.

Radha: Yeah. Tell us about your life. About your childhood.

Kishor: Yeah, exactly. Well, I educated in Kenya, I did my O-levels, and, we had a bit tough time because my father lost a job and everything, and, after my, O-levels, I had to start the job. I had to start working there because to survive, to support the family, family was staying together, all of us, my four brothers, we are four brothers and two sisters and father mother, we are staying in a small house, but we are very happy there.

You know, in those days, people grew up in a joint family. Now, once I started working, I was working in, various, supermarket, doing a labour job and everything. And slowly, slowly, I started coming up, coming up, and I then I joined the company called Firestone East Africa Limited and there I was, doing the sales and everything and, then I was promoted to, sales manager over there. Then after five years I left Firestone, I just resigned and, I joined, other company called Toyota Kenya, where I worked for five years. And I was also a manager over there, management and everything I was doing there. After that, I thought, now I think at that time, I thought, let me start my own business.

If I can, if I got the ability to do all these things, then why can’t I have my own business and make some money. So I started my own business. And, then the name of the company was called Toyo Space Limited. And the company was established for 22 years. Then afterward, it was in a partnership with my friend then we just split it out after 22 years. I said, we better close down the business and, then and I decide, I told my partner that I'm planning to go to UK to join my  children. So we decided to close the business up. And I came to, London and joined my son, elder son in Wales.

And because my son was settled down in Wales because he was working over here, he had a job over here in Wales and he's a chemical engineer, so he had a good job.

Robin Chaddah-Duke: That's great. So it's really interesting to hear about, you know, your career progression. But we were just thinking, you know very early childhood, you know, what do you remember the trees, the sun. What was it you said, you know, when you came over here, you missed things. What was it you think you missed from Kenya initially, you know?

Kishor: Yeah, in Kenya, actually, in the beginning, I was just missing that those, my friends and everybody, plus the life, over there was, more easy, way comfortable. And, you know, the thing was that, you always used to have people working for you. House workers and everybody you could employ. So everything was there, that's short of life. That's why the problems were there. Now, when we came over here in the beginning, we found difficult because we had to do everything ourself. Then we got used to it now, now we are very used to it that we are more comfortable then over there. And because of security wise and those days when we left, the security wasn't that good in Kenya.

Some people are still living there, still people living there, but security was very dangerous. You know, sometime you never know anything can happen to you. Any time people can come in, do anything in your house, with a gunpoint or anything they attack you, and the security wasn’t that good.

Well, my birth was in India. I was brought up in Kenya, and my last life is going to be in UK. That is in Wales. That’s my final destination. And that’s journey I'm going through my life.

Well, when I started working all the things, it was very tough for me. It was very difficult. I had to work, for long hours to, for the living, from, I usually started working from 7 o’clock in the morning till 7/8 o’clock at night in the beginning. And then for two years, I had to struggle at lot.

Then afterward, when I joined the big company like Firestone and Toyota, I was comfortable there because I was in a higher position, and I was very lucky to get the positions because it was my hard work I had to show them to, prove that I can do it. And then after, when I, I was working for all these companies, I thought, well, if I can, work hard and the company can make money out of my, my knowledge and everything, then why can't I start my own business?

So that was the thing which, brought into my mind that I must start my own business. All right? Now, my children, they were all educated in Kenya. My eldest son was born here, and after he finished his A Levels, I said I didn't have my education, what I wanted to do because of my time, time was difficult because we didn't have money to for the education at the time.

So I, I had in my mind always that I must educate my children, give them the best education if I can. That is more important. The thing is, if they are educated anywhere they travel, then all the knowledge they got it will go with them. Money is there, but money is there today and tomorrow is not there.

So money is not very important. Education is more important. Wherever he goes, he’ll be comfortable. That was the reason why I had to educate all my three children. I got two son and one daughter. My two sons are here, in one is in London, one is in Wales and my daughter is in Vancouver, and they are all educated, so they’re well settled down now.

So far and they are happy and they always appreciate that what you have done for, for, for us is we are happy that at least you have given us the education and whatever earning I was having, I was just spending after their education and bring them up so at least their level, that level, level of living is a bit higher than start from, from beginning.

So they don't find very difficult to settle down.

Interview (part 2) with Kishor Barchha

Robin: So, if you could just tell us a little bit about your very, very early childhood in Kenya, what sort of memories do you have from that?

Kishor: Oh, yeah. When I was young, we used to live, the place we used to live on the Park Road, and there were so many children around. And those days, it was very difficult for us. You know, we never used to wear even shoes. We used to run around without shoes and play around without shoes. You know, everything.

And, we had a tough time, and, we used to go to school, you know, raining. We never had a raincoat or anything. Get wet to school, go to school, come back home. All these things. Things we used to do. But, we used to play a lot of a lot of, games over there. Young age and, and, when we were in school, when I was in a school, that was, I did my, up to standard seven. Then I went to high school now, and when I went to the high school, when I finished my O-levels, I had a very tough time because my father didn't have a job at that time, so I had to struggle for the job and everything.

And a childhood, we used to enjoy our life because we had never had any worries about it. We never thought of tomorrow what’s going to happen because we never thought of such things. You know, people were so cooperating and everything, and, everybody was, playing around without any fear or anything. Everything, on those days, 1960 – yeah that was 1963, when Kenya got independent, we, we went to the, this, council building where they were celebrating everything. So I also went there to watch it, what's going on with my father? And they were offering drinks and everything, food and everything. And when Kenya got independent before Kenya got independent the problem was there about Mau Mau.

Mau Mau, the tribe, the people who were fighting for Kenya, independence. And Jomo Kenyatta was the first president of Kenya in Nairobi and, he was also fighting for the independence all the time. So all these, people who are fighting for this independence, they were all taken to the, jail and everything.

And my father used to run a business making - a manufacturer. So he used to help, these Africans, some of the Africans, but they don't get into problems, you see, because, on those days, it was British rule. So they're catching all these people Mau Mau and everything. My father used to help them out, to tell the police these are my people, don't worry about it, they're good people and this thing, that was what was going on all the time. And I, you know, the time we have gone through the life was very easy on those days. We never had, to struggle or anything. Even with the little earning everybody was living happily.

That was the life.

Robin: And do you think that changed after the expulsion? Was there more fear, even though it wasn't in Kenya? Do you think people felt a bit less safe in Kenya because of what happened, or was it very similar, do you think you just growing up?

Kishor: In Kenya, what happened, that was after Jomo Kenyatta, who passed away, the president was Daniel Moi he was chosen to become a president, next one, he was okay. Then there was in 1982 there was a coup which happened to overthrow the government. And the problem started over there at that time.

And people were worried that was going to happen and lucky enough, the military they helped them out and supported Daniel Moi to hold the position back. That was his good luck. And, when I was with, Firestone Company when I was working with them and, when they, you know, that was the first company who opened the factory, a tyre factory in Kenya that is in Nairobi.

And I was also with them and, and, a minister of finance, Mwai Kibaki - he was the third president of Kenya. He was also there and, he really supported me to get, all the documents done for me to stay there permanent forever. So that's why I got my citizenship over there because they said we don't want to miss the people who are hardworking and who are supporting the company. So that's why I was, there all the time. Then I left the company, and, our childhood time, I had a good time. I never had any complaints and, we used to have a good life together.

Robin: Okay. Perfect. Yes. Thank you, thank you.