Casglwyd a golygwyd yr hanes llafar hwn gan Ganolfan Adrodd Storïau George Ewart Evans fel rhan o brosiect Straeon Bawso.

Mae prosiect Storiau Bawso yn brosiect partneriaeth arloesol rhwng Canolfan Adrodd Storïau George Ewart Evans (Prifysgol De Cymru), sefydliad cymorth arbenigol Bawso ac Amgueddfa Cymru. Ariannwyd y prosiect hwn gan Gronfa Dreftadaeth y Loteri Genedlaethol.

Mae caniatâd wedi'i roi i'r stori hon gael ei rhannu

a. Yn archifau a chasgliadau Amgueddfa Cymru
b. Ar wefannau, e.e. Casgliad y Werin Cymru, Bawso, Prifysgol De Cymru, Amgueddfa Cymru, etc.
c. Ar gyfryngau cymdeithasol, e.e. Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, ac ati.
d. Mewn cyhoeddiadau ysgrifenedig, e.e. adroddiadau prosiect, erthyglau cyfnodolion, ac ati.
e. Mewn unrhyw ddefnydd arall yn unol â nodau ac amcanion y prosiect

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Cyfweliad gyda Mary (Storiau Bawso)

Hyd: 00:50:32

[Trawsgrifiad ar gael yn Saesneg yn unig]

Thank you so much for coming in today, it's so nice to see you again and great to have met you on Friday.

Yeah, thank you.

So, first of all I'm wondering, can you tell me about your experience of coming to Wales?

My experience, I came in this country on 25 February 2017. So, when I came here, I went somewhere in Wales. So, what happened is I came together with my children, without knowing how the country would be like or how it would be like. So, we came there, and we stayed in the caravan because it was a start, it was like a holiday by the way, because we came like visiting and see how it was because I got married in Kenya by a British citizen, so he brought us to see how the country is like. So, our first, he recommended us to stay at the caravan because it was a start, and it was for a few months so that we can go back. So, we stayed there. When we stayed there, it was not very good because what I thought when I was back home is when I come here, I can go work a little bit and make some money. So, paying for the caravan was too expensive and we couldn't afford. We afforded but by continuing staying there, the money started coming low for us. So, what happened is we went to church, one of the churches because I'm a Christian. So, we went to church and people wanted to know about us and we told them that we are staying in caravan such and such and one of the men was interested, he was a head teacher, and he knew my husband. So, he said that it's good to see you and I will come to see you sometimes. So, we feel so welcomed at the church and they came to see us because I had the children, and we were so happy.

So, by then, my husband got ill, and we didn't have anywhere to stay, we didn't have enough money, and we didn't know what to do. So, he was (unclear 2.32) it went that bad even he could not walk. So, I started saying that something must be done for this because I didn't know. So, I was asking the man, and he was telling me rather than him going to the hospital, there is nothing we can do about it. So, I met one of my friends on Facebook and he told me about the Bawso. He said to me that maybe there is this place called Bawso. Maybe when you go there, they'll be able to assist you and support you before your time comes to go home. So, we came here. I checked the number. I called them and they told us to come and see them. So, I have to come. We paid for the bus, we came here, and we came to Bawso. So, the first thing which made me happy on my arrival, I heard there was someone from Kenya. So, that makes me feel quite happy and I had hope because I see she’s, the name is exactly like mine. She's a Kenyan so I had hope. The girl said that there is a girl here, she works here but she's from your country. Is it okay if I call her, you speak to her and you'll be able to explain what's wrong and what happened and where you are and who you are and why are you with the children, they are not in school.

So, they were so concerned. So, she came to see us, we were so happy. By the way, she spoke to us with our language. Even my children were so happy. The first thing she did is she bought for me food, the food we normally eat at home. I was so happy, and I said to myself, oh my God, I haven't seen this in any shop because I was looking for it. So she went, bought it, we went cook and that was, we were so happy. So, I came the next day, what first thing she did, we come, met her, she gave us things to cook. She said that because it's too late, you can go back, come another day. Another thing she did, she thought they might not have enough money. It's true, we didn't have any money, all what we did, we paid for the transport to come here, but we didn't know how to get back. So, she said, she went to her pocket, she gave me transport. She told us, let me give you some money. I said to her, how did you know we don't have anything? We didn't have any money because the money was finishing by staying there, paying, eating and all sorts. So, she gave me some money, we went back and then she gave, she did shopping. She gave me money, she told me, go back and come tomorrow, early in the morning, we can be able to discuss it.

So, we were so happy and when I went and told my husband, he had hope about that something might happen before we go back. So, it went like that until my husband's illness continued and he went to the hospital and the doctor recommended he was in a bad condition. There is no way he could travel. So, we remained in this country and because our visa was just to visit and to go back. If we could go, my husband didn’t have someone to take care of. So, she recommended us to stay so that we can be able to look after that. So, she helped us with the application and then we got permission to stay so that we can look after him. So, the way they were supporting us and the way they welcomed us here, I don't know what to say because everyone was nice, support was good. I thought I am not going back there. I started saying that we need to go back there, it's better you get us somewhere and we stay here because there we could not see anyone for Africa or someone who could speak the same language, someone you can talk to.

I was worried, I was so scared, you can't go just to somebody and start explaining your experience. So, all the support we got here, we were so happy, and we started getting settled and the children, they went to school, they started the school. They did our application for us because back in Africa, what we do is if you want to take a child to school, you can go today and tomorrow the kids will go to school. So, here we seen it different because you have to apply, you have to this and that and we didn't know that. They did our application for us, the children went to school, I started settling, waiting for my paperwork and the paperwork come and it was good. So, they told me to look for work so that our life can be better. So, with their support at the start, it was so good, welcoming and we went to church also here, I met some more friends, and we became friends. So, I started liking the place and I got settled here. Yeah.

That's great, it was a positive experience, finding the support from Bawso.

Another thing is I was meeting some people from other countries who didn't know what to do. We went to one of the church, there was a girl who was in the same situation but I didn't have her number, she was telling me that I'm staying with my friend, I don't know what to do, things like that. So, I don't know what I can talk about Bawso because my life has changed a lot and up to now, for me to be working, my children are big, it's all to do with them.

How old were you when you came to Wales?

I was 30 years old, one of my children was eight and the other one was 11 years. Now they are big because one is 17 years and 19 years. Big people, yeah. They were coming for activities here, they were learning English, I was coming here to learn more English because my English was not quite good. So, when she told me there is a free lesson in English, I was coming here every day and I could not believe that English was free, you go to the class and the teacher is learning you how to for free, I could not believe it. So, I was coming every day, I started making friends and that was another thing which was so good here. They make me start creating confidence, talking to people and there is another thing I didn't know, I didn't know how to respond. You know when somebody talks to you, for example, someone could offer you a cup of tea, I didn't know how to say yes please, I didn't know how to say that, do you want a cup of tea? I would say yes but I didn't know how to say yes please or thank you because back home you are not trained to do things like that.

So, that's another thing, it's a very little thing but I didn't know how important it is, I didn't know how to, yes please, thank you was very important. Yeah, I learnt something, and I went to one of my friends, she's quite old, so I went to see her, and she offered me a cup of tea. She says to me, "Do you want a cup of tea?" I said, "Yes," and she said, "No, you don't say that!" She said, "No, you don't have to say just yes, you have to use the word yes please," and I remembered! So, that was another thing I learnt, and they taught me how to respect people and how you can talk to people and you are respecting them, or you are not, you will talk in a good way without being rude. Because if the English, the one we are taught back home is quite commanding because we didn't know how to say yes, please, thank you, things like that. But now I know and another thing I learnt is to appreciate and to appreciate the little thing I have because the little experience I had when I was struggling, I see there is many, many people outside there who want support and who want to learn, yeah.

That's great, I'm glad you had a positive experience.

Yeah, I learnt a lot.

Would you say your relationship with Wales has changed at all in the time since you are telling me about?

Yeah, it has changed a lot. What was most for me was to create a confidence to talk to people because I didn't have that, I started being happy, I was not happy, I was feeling like I was so lonely, I didn't have any hope, I didn't know where to start or what to do, yeah. My life has changed a lot, I settled, my children are big people, I got a job, yeah, and I know how to talk to people, how to communicate with them, I know what is good and what is bad, yeah.

That's good. Do you have more to say? I feel like we were both going to say something, I just wanted to check, were you going to say something else?

No.

So, would you be able to tell me what the word 'home' means to you now?

Back home?

Well just the word 'home,' if I say oh, what does home mean to you?

To have a home is very important for your family, and for you to have a life for yourself. With home, you know after this, there is somewhere I am going. Yeah, so it's really good and you can cook what you like, you can talk to your children, you can teach them. Yeah, so home is good. To have a home is very good.

What makes you feel at home? What kinds of things?

It's to be welcomed, I felt at home when I was welcomed, when there is peace in the house, yeah, you feel good, yeah. When you see your children, you are all together as a family, it's very good, yeah.

Could you describe a place or a time in your life that's important to you?

While I'm here or…

It could be before as well, yeah, any place or time in your life that really is important to you and that could be from the past, before coming to Wales, it could be anything in your life.

Yeah, what is so important in my life is when I was being looked after by my grandmother because I was staying with my grandmother, he learnt me a lot, he learnt me how she was a farmer, he learnt me how to look after her cows, how to make fire woods, how to cook, so that's very important. Yeah, she was learning me how to do, in case there is no this, you can do this, in case there is no food, this is how you can do to feed your children, this is what you can do to make money, yeah, and up to now it has helped me a lot, yeah. Another thing I was happy of is when I was going back home to see my parents, yeah, and I was waiting for the flight after six years, after struggling and everything, they didn’t have a clue because I didn't have any communications with them, yeah. For me, living with my grandmother, I didn't live well with my parents, I didn't know where they were. So, when I started working, I started searching, I found them, so it was good when I was going back home and I met them and I was telling them how it's been since, yeah, and I was so happy to know when I was going back home, I was going to meet my parents. Yeah.

Okay. So, you grew up as a child with your grandmother?

Yes.

You didn’t know your parents?

I knew them, but separation, there was a little separation, and my grandmother took me. Yeah. So, I didn’t know. I was raised by my grandmother. By the way, I knew she was my mother, but she was repeating for me all the time. She was looking for – you know when there is fight in the family and you go on your own way, the other one go on their own way. So, my grandmother, because I was named after her, she didn't like it, so she took me and my mother went with the other kids, so me, I remained with my grandmother. I didn't see them until I went back home on the 2022, the first time, yeah, that's when I met them.

Since you were how old?

Since I was eight years.

Wow. That's a long time. So, can you tell me a bit more about growing up with your grandmother. It sounds like she taught you a lot of things.

Yeah, because it was not easy by those days because we used to go farming and what we used to do we used to use firewood so that we can be able to cook and another thing we used to do because you know when there is fire there is smoke. So, she come with this other way where we have to go cut the trees and burn charcoals. We had to wait for the charcoals to get ready in two weeks, so we have to go cut the trees, put the poles together, see the poles, then we used to cover them with the soil and we will put the fire between the charcoals, so then we will cover them, so, in two weeks, they will be charcoals inside, yeah. They used to burn slow by slow and then they were making charcoals. So, we used to like that because there was no smoke on them, yeah, and that one we used to keep it on the main house. At night the house will be warm. Another thing is I used to milk my dad's cows, my grandmother cows, sorry, and I used to use my hand, and she has a dog, and she has a cow. So, the milking hours at evening was six o'clock and early in the morning seven o'clock. So, I learnt to milk the cow using my hands and she had a dog and cat who was following me, they knew the time. So, they will follow me, they will wait for me to finish milking. So, I used to have a little bowl, I will put milk for them, so they will take a milk before it goes to my grandmother.

So, after that we used to sell that milk to make some money, yeah, but sometimes she used to say, "Don't have to feed the milk to my cat before you bring it, we don't have enough to sell all that thing," but I didn't like it because I used to love them. So, after I milk, I used to feed my dog and my cat, yeah, before it is to him, otherwise I will hide it. So, I learnt to make charcoals for fire, I learnt to dig, you've seen me digging, I've shown you using – we used to call them jembe, we used to plant using our hands and dig the holes, put the maize, we used to use our hands, yeah, washing clothes, we used to use our hands. We will go to the river, fetch water and come there, wash our clothes and put them outside, yeah, of which there is no those things nowadays because some people will milk using machine, yeah, but of where, we used to use our hands and I like it, yeah.

A lot of using the hands, isn't it, and using the body to work in the house, yeah, and you were at the museum, some of those things reminded you, didn't they?

Yeah, when I went to the museum, I seen a saw and I remember what we used to cut the trees and there was that sound, you see that sound when you are cutting the tree, yeah, it's very good, I seen it and even I recorded it, yeah. There was a saw and there was that voice, the one you make, because my grandmother used to cut the saw the other side and me I'll be the other side, so we used to cut the tree and that sound was very, very good, yeah, it used to make a sound.

So, you recorded that on your phone?

Yeah, I recorded it because it was very good, yeah, because what I do is I will take it to my dad when I go back home. Another thing is it reminded me how we used to cut the tree, use those poles to burn the charcoals and when I went to the other room there was charcoals there. So, I took a photo and I took a photo of those charcoals and there was a room where there was pans, cooking pans and they were dark because the fire used to make them dark. So, you could not wash it or touch it because we only used to wash it inside, yeah.

Wow, it's so interesting that all of these memories can come up from something that was happening far, far away from where you grew up but people were using the same techniques.

Yeah, yeah, another thing is I seen in that museum, I could not believe it is how they were sitting and using those plastic cups, so at my grandmother's house there was that cup, on top of it where you drink, at the top of it where you drink the tea, it has a crack but still we were using them, yeah.

The metal ones?

Yeah.

Are they white? The white ones?

Yeah, the white ones, those ones and the kettles we would put on top of the charcoals, and it would boil the tea. That was the way to make tea and cooking tea, so that was another thing which make me remember back home, yeah.

What kinds of things would you cook and what kinds of tea would you have as well?

Oh, what we do, we used to use direct milk from the cow, after milking we would boil the milk using those fire woods and charcoals. We would boil the milk, put it aside and boil the water, then we used to mix all of it together. You would mix water, you would mix milk and tea bag, yeah, and when it boils that was ready tea to drink, yeah.

So, you had tea bags?           

Yeah, we had a tea bag but it's not a tea bag, not tea bag, normal tea, there is no bags, it was not covered, it's just tea, you see tea itself, the inside one, the one is on the bag, it's the one we used to put on the tea and then after tea is ready you used to sieve it, so we had a sieve, when you use the tea bags you sieve it to stop drinking the tea, yeah.

I'm wondering if you can remember any specific times or things that happened when you were maybe using the saw or making food or drinking tea with the charcoals or making the charcoals, maybe something that happened with one of the animals or something happened differently to normal, unexpected, is there anything you can remember?

Yeah, one day this is what happened, so I used to go milk, I would put milk on a feed cart with that milk and dog. So, my grandmother didn't like me doing that. So, she was stopping all the time. So, this is what happened because she didn't like it, so one day I said oh I'm not going to give them. So, I took the milk back to my grandmother, where I kept it, because I didn't feed them, the cats poured it all. So, the cat, I don't know, it was trying to reach for it from the top of the bucket and all the milk went on the floor and she was so angry. I was laughing and she said you could allow me to feed the cat. So, what happened is the cat, it's like she was not happy. So, she poured all the milk, she jumped on it, tried to take it itself, it went on the floor, and I was laughing because I could see them trying to take it on the floor, yeah. So, my grandmother's reaction was not good, she was so angry, that whole day she was complaining, saying no it's not good, you have taught them they are not good now, yeah. That day I will never forget.

When you were describing the tea, there was a lot of crashing and doors and people, could you tell me just one more time how you would use those metal cups, the white ones and the kettle?

The kettle one, we used to put tea inside the water, we would put milk, tea bag inside it and sugar, then we would put on top of the charcoal fire, and it used to boil it, yeah, we used to boil the tea with them and then we were drinking like that. But also with those pans, we used to cook using those pans, I have a photo of them, yeah, and the thing is they used to get, they used to be like charcoal because they were coming back because of a firewood. So, we could not wash it or touch it on top, so we used to wash inside. I didn't like washing it because they used to – your hand would be everywhere, and you might touch your face everywhere and everyone would be – other children would be laughing for you. Yeah.

So, like black sort of dust? Soot, I suppose.

It couldn’t come well on your heart. Maybe you touch your face, and it will be on your nose. Yeah, the children used to laugh about that when they see you like that.

What was it like to drink from those white, tin [cups]?

To drink using those, it was not very good because they were cracking, the top ones were cracking. So, it was painted, and it would remain like that. They used to come bits and bits of it, and it was metal. So, sometimes you might drink tea, and you could feel the metals, yeah. So, it was not very good, yeah.

Great, that's perfect, yeah, thank you for sharing that again, it was just so loud before. So, is there anything else about your childhood and this time in your life and these places that you'd like to share? Any other memories or things that are important to you to share?

I'm trying to remember.

Yeah, it's okay, take your time, okay?

Yeah, what another thing is, I would like to share is beds. The bed they used to sleep on, so one morning we got up and I got up, so I was wondering, because we used to say, also those woods, there was a bed for my grandmother which was made of woods. So, we used to sleep on different bedroom. So, what happened was, I got up early in the morning, I went do milking and bring the milk back, sorted everything. But it was not a normal day because my grandmother didn't got up, yeah. So, I said, why she keep on sleeping, she don't want to get up today. So, I said, I going to go knock the door. So, I called him, grandma, grandma, get up. She did, even she didn't talk to me. She was getting up early, talk to me and tell me whatever, or she wait for me to go milk and bring the milk. So, I went to call her, she didn't respond. So, I thought she was ignoring, and she wasn't. So, I said, it went even to lunch time, still she's in bed. So, I said, I'm going to the neighbor and tell them, I've been calling my grandmother and she's not getting up. So, one of the lady came to look after her and she came out crying, she said, I'm sorry, she's not there anymore. So, that was very sad, because up to now I have never forgotten the bed, yeah, the bed, it was so sad. It was because I did have someone to talk to again. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Thank you for sharing that, it must have been very hard. Yeah. Do you want a tissue?

So, it was not good.

No, it's okay. How old were you?

I was like 12 years. Yeah. So, I have never forgotten because rather than her teaching all that and without my mother being there, father, so the life started was not good, yeah, to start a life again was not easy, yeah.

So, were you on your own?

Yeah. Yeah. But it's okay now, because that was the first time I didn't know about the deaths and everything. So, I think that my grandmother and I, it was so upsetting because I didn't know. I didn't know, I have never seen somebody, somebody dead, yeah, and she was just lying on bed like normal, yeah. It was so sad, yeah. It was not good to see, yeah, but I had to see, and I thought she could talk, but no, so, yeah. For them to explain to me, it was quite hard, because one of the children used to say, "oh, you will never have grandmother again," "I don't know who you will be staying with," things like that, where will you go, there will be, yeah, things like that, the other children will tell you, yeah, and that was quite sad for me, yeah, when she left. Yeah, so when I went back home, I still went to her grave and see, yeah, because I was named after her and she had the same name like me, yeah, that's something which I will never forget, yeah. Her clothes are still there, one of her clothes she used to like was still there and the basket, the one she used to go to the garden and bring potatoes and beans. So, that we can cook, so I kept it, it's still there, I can see it, yeah.

So, did you say that the bed that you saw on Friday reminded you of that? Which one?

Yeah, because it was exactly.

Which one was it?

It was in the – no, I don’t think I seen the bed. What I seen was the things which were made of. It was made like poles. There was four posts standing, like a timber frame. Yeah, so there was those frames, it was made of those frames, yeah.

Was it in the small houses that were next to each other?

Yes.

Upstairs?

No, it was not upstairs, it was as you are coming outside on that corridor. The reason I remember them is because they were not very nice for a bed, they were not very nice, yeah.

So, you saw the wooden pieces rather than a bed put together?

Yeah, it was wooden pieces and when I see them, I remember how they used to have those thick, thick frames, yeah. And I took a photo of those too.

Well, thank you for sharing that. It's a sad memory but I can tell she was very important to you.

Yes, she was, yeah, yeah.

But thank you for that, it's very, very touching to hear.

So, I think that when the mother and father split, it's not very good because it's the children who will suffer, yeah, yeah. So, when there is fight and all those things, children are the ones which are… Their life ought to be good, yeah. Yeah.

Is there anything else from your childhood that you'd like to share?

Yeah, childhood is when we used to go to school, getting up early, shower with the cold water, we used to walk with no shoes, there was no shoes. Yeah, we used to walk barefoot, we'd go to school and back without the shoes. So, that walking without the shoes was a tough one because sometimes even you used to have thorns, thorns would go on your foot, yeah. We could not afford shoes.

Was it a long walk?

Yeah, it was, it was like a one-hour walk, yeah. We didn't have shoes, yeah.

Did you like school?

Yeah, I used to love the school a lot, yeah, but I didn't learn very well because I was thinking this, that, yeah.

From what age did you go to school?

I started seven, I started, nursery school is from four years, yeah. For two years of nursery school then you go to primary school where you have to go there for eight hours, then you go to secondary school, you go four years, yeah.

You went all the way through to secondary school?

Yeah, I went but I didn't finish the last year. Yeah, it was free education, yeah, so everyone could go, yeah.

That's good, that's good. Anything else you'd like to share or you okay to move on?

Yeah, we can move on.

Yeah, you have answered this question but maybe there's another example you can share. So, my question is, can you tell me about a magic moment when something changed for you?

When something changed for me is when I got married. So, when I got married, not the first, because this is my second marriage. So, the first one, I didn't like it much, though I had those two children, but I didn't like it. There was lots going on and it was not very good. He left us, me and my children. It was quite struggling. My children has gone through a lot in life. So, what it is, still I got married again and he was so good, he looked after us. The start of it, he was good. I got married, he liked my children. He came to Africa, he was from this country, Wales.  He came to Africa, he looked after us. He stayed with us for two years, yeah. He made sure my children went to school. He changed them to school because he changed their school education. He looked after us very well, food, nice house. He liked us so much and he said he could not leave us. He thought he would come with us to see if we like it. If we like it, we can remain here.

So, he brought us here and he was not well. He was going through a lot because I think back there, the weather and things, it did. So, he was struggling a bit and that's when he decided to come. We were going to live there because he was happy. Since he started getting ill and he came here and still it was not good at all. He said that he didn't want us to leave him. So, we decided to leave and that's when Bawso supported us because they could see his situation was not good at all. Because he could not even walk. He could not, his back was very bad. Where he was going, ICT, all those things. Since Bawso supported us and he said that if we go back, he would be so upset, even he thought he was going to die. So, that's when Bawso supported us and helped us to get an application, and we remained. We were looking after him. So, my children, life changed. School, up to now, they love it here. They like it here so much. Because they come when they are young. All their friends are here.

It's good that they like it here now.

Yeah, they like it, they love it so much.

Are you happy here still?

Yes, I am. And yeah, everyone, many people are good. Yeah, I like it here.

That's good. That's a very interesting moment, thank you for sharing that. Do you have any hopes for the future?

Yeah, I have hopes for the future because like now, if I want, I can go to school. But sometimes I think if I go to school, how will I pay my bills and how will I pay my... So, that one, I want to know how it works because I would like to go back to school. Like a college, university, yeah. Bawso said they would support me with that. Because if they explain to me this is what I have to do. So, I think myself if I go to school, it might not be good. That's what I don't know, yeah, how it works with the school.

What would you like to study?

Mental health, yeah.

Get a qualification in that.

Yeah, because I love looking after those people here and I learned a lot from there. So, I would like to go back to school. My friend, they go to work but still they haven't known how it works. Yeah, they don't know how it works, if you can work. Because now I'll be worried if I go to school, how am I going to pay this, how am I going to do this and that, yeah.

Yeah, it's all very expensive, isn't it? Do you have any other hopes for the future? Or is that the main one?

Yes, I have hopes for the future because I'm happy. I know how it works, and I can go to work. Yeah, so at least I have hope, yeah.

Great. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us or that you feel it's important for us to know about you and your life experience? Is there anything else you want to share, any memories, stories, experiences?

Maybe what I'd like to share is like the way they have free teachers. Most people, especially the people who are coming. Lately there is many people who are coming from outside country and when they speak, like I can say in our Kenya, our English is quite commanding, you see. Of which, yeah, I didn't know that. Because there is a word I can mention, I can talk that English and you say, oh, I don't know why she said that. But at my side, I think it's good, you see. But then they don't know, they think, yeah, that's how it's supposed, yeah. So, most people, I like most people to come and have those lessons, yeah, to know how to speak with other people, yeah.

Is there anything else you'd like to share about your life or your experience that you'd like people to know?

Experience like, rather than coming, it's not easy to make friends. Yeah, it's only maybe when you have – if you come here, you just stay in the house, you don't have friends, it's not easy. So, you have to engage yourself with whatever is going on, like Bawso, and you get to know people, that's how you make friends, yeah, events. Yeah, but if you sit at home, you won't develop yourself, yeah. It's really only when you are just sitting at home, waiting for this and that, you can't talk to people because you don't know where to start, yeah.

Community is important, isn't it?

Yes, it is, yeah.

I'm glad you found that with Bawso, that's really good.

Yes, yes, I found it.

It's important that we have these services, isn't it?

Yes, this one is so helpful. I would like it to be everywhere, because people outside there, they don't know, they don't know, most people don't know, and most people are struggling, most people they end up with depression. You see somebody in work, they are so lonely, and they don't know there is somewhere they can get help, yeah. So, we say for example if Bawso, but I would like Bawso to grow, Chester, Liverpool, it's every city, I would like them to have Bawso, yeah. Yeah. Because it has helped a lot, yeah.

That's good, it's only in Wales, isn't it really?

Yeah, it's only in Wales, I don't know why it's not, because like one of my friends I used to know, she was in London. She had a very bad depression, and she was going to even kill herself. She said it's enough, she did say, I'm homeless, I can't do anything, I can't go to work, she tried to apply for a work, she don't know where to start. So, I told her about Bawso and she came all the way, yeah. She called them and they came, she came here, yeah, because she didn't know, yeah. Now, her life is very good, yeah, and it's something for her to remember. We say, for example, if Bawso say, can everyone who I've supported to come, there'll be thousands, many of them will turn up, yeah.

Yeah, I think it's something like 6,000 a year, 6,000 people a year, they support, it's a lot.

Yeah, it's a lot, yeah, and I can imagine the ones who still don't know anything, yeah.

Good, okay. Is there anything else you'd like to share? We've almost done an hour, so it's been quite a good long interview. Is there anything else you'd like to share that's important to you?

I don’t think I have.

You sure?

Yeah.

Okay. Thank you so much. That was a real privilege to hear more about your life. Thank you so much for sharing.

Thank you.

Yeah, okay, I'll turn this off.